well, i can tell you i'm not the happiest of campers. i really wish that kerry had won, but what can i do? i voted, that's about it. i have a bad feeling the next 4 years are going to grow us deeper in debt and that many more lives will be lost in the middle east. (i've never been a bush fan, present or former, for that matter. they strike me as war mongers, and that's not the impression i'd like to give the world about our country, tho i suppose it's a bit late for that now)

more upsetting to me than the presidential part of the election tho is an issue in my state (and i think in a few others, as well) called the 'marriage protection issue'. not only does this state that a marriage is only between a man and a woman, it does away with common law marriages (a law that states if you live together for x amount of years (i want to say 6, but i'm not sure) you're legally considered married, whether the paperwork has been filed with the state or not), and any benefits currently being recieved by the 'spouse' are no longer. this includes medical insurance, life insurance (no longer considered the beneficiary), and others. i cannot believe this ammendment passed. anyone who voted yes for it simply does not know what it's truely about, they only voted for it because the first line is that marriage is between a man and a woman. many, many, many elderly couples (as well as others) who never married will be adversely effected by this. but even if that werent the case, i'd still have voted no for it. no one is allowed to tell me wheter i can abort my unborn child (not that i ever would, mind, but legally no one can tell me that i cant), so how can anyone have a right to tell me who i can and cannot marry?! it just really irks me, and i wonder how long it will be before it's repealed. i imagine people will be pissed when they find out they no longer have benefits, so i dont expect it to be around more than a couple of years or so.

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i don't care no i wouldn't dare to fix the twist in you (Sick Puppies : All The Same)

Can I just ask, Ani, did you want Kerry to win, or not want Bush to win? (if you see what I mean)

As for the warmongering, I agree with you, and for that reason I was hoping Kerry would win. Although, I'd have been interested to see how he dealt with the situation in Iraq - if he pulled troops out, or went about it in a completely different way. Just a thought.

I'm also aware that domestic issues will have been a part of it, and those I know nothing about - my opinion is based entirely on what I've seen from here, which, sadly, has been a lot of attacking innocent people and successfully capturing a handful of most-definitely-not-innocent people - but not all of the most dangerous people (eg Bin Laden). I mean, capturing Saddam was a good thing, for sure, but look at the absolute mess that's been created as a result of the way it was carried out. As a result, I'm really quite scared of what might happen next, especially with the UK's close ties to the US which mean that whatever wars Bush starts, we join...

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-the bouncy sleepy bar of chocolate

well, honestly, it was more wanting bush to not win than for kerry to win. kerry has his downfalls too, but i dont think they're as extreme as bush's. at least kerry was interested in removing tax breaks for corporations that send jobs overseas, and he seemed to want to rebuild our country, unlike bush, who's first (and seems ONLY thought) is the war on terror (which he's going completely the wrong direction with -- we cannot fight terror with terror).

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i don't care no i wouldn't dare to fix the twist in you (Sick Puppies : All The Same)

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Report10_21_04.pdf

bush has thoughts? no one told me! I might have been more supportive of him if I'd known!

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On 2004-11-03 16:25, somechick wrote: unlike bush, who's first (and seems ONLY thought) is the war on terror (which he's going completely the wrong direction with -- we cannot fight terror with terror).

I completley agree with you. He seems hell bent on fighting no matter what.

Now i don't know anything at all about America's domestic policies, but the foreign policy is enough to put me off.

I think Bush returning for another term makes this a sad day for the world, I don't even want to think about where we will all be in 4 years time

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Honestly now...

Welcome to the apocalypse my friends. We had stood on the edge of war have made and now we must reap what has been sewn. And instead of the damage done being repaired it's being reinforced. how long do you think it'll be before America is a dictatorship it's self?

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Cheese I choose you!

I for one, am glad Bush got re-elected. I dont think hes the BEST thing for the country, but i think he is clearly the better of the two.

I dont believe in gay marraiges, and it goes against the whole reason this country was founded ...but that was 200 years ago.

I dont see what the big deal about the common law marriages is, why dont they just go out and get married?

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Never allow someone to be your priority, while allowing yourself to be their option.

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On 2004-11-04 12:16, Fluid wrote: .... I dont believe in gay marraiges, and it goes against the whole reason this country was founded ...but that was 200 years ago. ....

i'm a little confused by the comment quoted there.. the country was founded for freedom, but now 200 years later, you dont think that still applies? how is it that i'm free to have an abortion if i choose, or that my neighbors are no longer slaves, or that there are multiracial/multicultrual couples (and whole families), but there's something wrong with two men (or two women!) loving each other and wanting to share a lifelong commitment with each other??

homosexuality is NATURAL. something like 10% of all animals in the wild are homosexual. is that a choice? now, i'm not saying that 100% of all homosexual couples aren't gay by choice (i think some choose (for whatever reason -- sexual abuse, mental abuse, insecurities, feeling abnormal, etc) and some are born that way), but how do we, as a FREE COUNTRY, have any right to tell them that their love for one another isnt valid or isnt sacred and that it wont be reconginzed? they're not asking for SPECIAL rights (as i've heard some people call it), they're asking for EQUAL rights. and i think it's the least we can do for them.

the declaration of independence states :

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." ( www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html )

does this not apply to ALL wo/men? THIS is what our country was based on, and i think we have to do our part to make sure that NO ONE's rights are trampled upon.

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i don't care no i wouldn't dare to fix the twist in you (Sick Puppies : All The Same)

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On 2004-11-04 13:14, somechick wrote: homosexuality is NATURAL. something like 10% of all animals in the wild are homosexual.

I have to confess, I assumed that comment was more or less invented. I did, however, remember hearing references to homosexuality in nature - so I checked it out. A quick google search provided several references, and although the only actual number I found was 5%, that was for one specific species. So, yeah.

My own stance on homosexuality is: who cares? It's your life, you do what you want with it. I was brought up by Christian parents, and I live in a house with one gay man and one bi man. Religeous tolerance? Heh.

I remember earlier this year I was forced to consider my stance on homosexuality more closely. It took me fifteen minutes to decide that nothing had changed; the only thing that actually upset me was not having been told.

At any rate, my thoughts on Bush the younger are a prime example of bigotry (excuses aside) so I shan't reiterate them here.

His mindset is that of a dead time, we are no longer in war of lies and of hard minds and deeds. The cold war is over so why are liberal ideas now being shuned? Don't forget the Nazi's started off by saying jewish to pure blood germans was wrong, then by making that law.. Is this where we're going again? Do some looking up of the early nazi party and make up your own mind. Some of the similaritries are shocking. I'm not saying another 40 million people are going to get wiped off the face of the planet again but that some of the ideas and belives of the most powerful man on the planet are scarirly similar to that of a criminally insane war mongering party that brought the world to it's knees before being beaten into submission.
I now await the thought police and a bullit to the forehead for thinking thoughts against them.

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Cheese I choose you!

*puts Rage Against the Machine on*

I was lurking, and I was so hoping someone would come up with the Independence speech that I had floating round in my head.

I refer you to the first Boinng philosophy "Peoples is peoples".

Gay, straight, round the twist, black, brown, white or polka dots. They are all people, and people deserve respect and consideration - whatever their outlooks.

You may not agree, you may not like it. But as Voltaire once said

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

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"Welcome to the end of the thought process..."

humm maybe it's time for a new revolution? one not built on money or the desire for material goods? driving greed and complancy.. maybe what we finally need is something higher.. maybe or am i showing my nievity about the good in man kind again?

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Cheese I choose you!

Higher ideals, higher values

Yes, it is a dream. A good dream.

The world as it is - will bitchslap you for it.

Someone, start a revolution now. Where do I sign up?

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"Welcome to the end of the thought process..."

The thing is real change can't be brought about by bitching and whinging... who would be willing to join and stand at the front lines for something better? something worth beliving in? Something finally worth looking forward to other than an over played dream we're told to hope for since we're born?

The seeds in my mind have been planted it's about time we said enough and about time we stopped trying to hide behind peacful methods. They don't why should we? Its the cycle of things.

This message was edited by:Sgt_Oddball on 2004-11-04 18:42

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Cheese I choose you!

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On 2004-11-04 18:41, Sgt_Oddball wrote: ...it's about time we ... stopped trying to hide behind peacful methods. They don't why should we?

That sounds suspiciously like a justification for the war on terror...

This message was edited by:Legionary on 2004-11-04 18:56

Oooh, ooh, I get to quote my favourite film !

"Get busy living, or get busy dying. That's goddamn right"

Hehehe - always wanted a chance to do that

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"Welcome to the end of the thought process..."

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On 2004-11-04 13:14, somechick wrote: i'm a little confused by the comment quoted there.. the country was founded for freedom, but now 200 years later, you dont think that still applies?

And that is why you are confused. This country was founded by puritans fleeing from religious persecution and the like. Not "freddom". Were people not free in Europe 200 years ago? When did they suddenly become free?

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On 2004-11-04 13:14, somechick wrote: homosexuality is NATURAL.

You are right. Homosexuality is natural. About as natural as pedophilia and necrophilia. So ill give you that one.

Animals also start breeding as soon as they menstruate, so should we start soliciting our daughters as soon as they menstruate.

If you want to start living like animals, go for it. Theres really nothing i can do to stop you.

This message was edited by:Fluid on 2004-11-05 13:41

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Never allow someone to be your priority, while allowing yourself to be their option.

In all truth 'freedom' is a matter of perpective. I mean being allowed to kill another human because i feel like it is something wrong and anyone doing it should be rightly punished but in killing that person they are expressing their freedom to kill another. There are some things that everybody has a right to but freedom is not something truely viable on any persivable scale you can be free of one thing but enslaved to another because of that freedom. We all have needs that we'll never be free of. I think the real problem is that while what we call democracy is far from perfect but for now it's the best we've got i just feel it's time to give some new ideas a try. Change being one of the hardest things in the world hence why nothing good ever came from procrasitnating we need to force change to fight for it. i need a drink before my mind melts and i come with a new social/polical way of life thats better than what we have.. saywhat we take over a small south american country and see if it works? It's not like anyone would notice at first..

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Cheese I choose you!

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On 2004-11-05 13:30, Fluid wrote: And that is why you are confused. This country was founded by puritans fleeing from religious persecution and the like. Not "freddom". Were people not free in Europe 200 years ago? When did they suddenly become free?

it seems to me that fleeing religious persecution would be seeking freedom from it? there were other things too, of course, but this does seem to be the biggest. but i wasnt really talking about the english colonies that we started out as, i was talking about when we became independant from england. *that* is when our country was founded.

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You are right. Homosexuality is natural. About as natural as pedophilia and necrophilia. So ill give you that one.

uh, no. how often do you seen animals raping their young? or having sex with thier own dead, for that matter? (i only did a quick search, but couldnt find anything supporting that wild animals actually have pedophiliac or necrophiliac acts)

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Animals also start breeding as soon as they menstruate, so should we start soliciting our daughters as soon as they menstruate.

well, if you've noticed anything about young girls now days, you've noticed that a startling amount of them are starting to have sex at younger and younger ages. some even before they menstrate, but that's another story.

there are HUGE differences between wild animals and humans, but there are also HUGE similarities. we are, after all, animals.

and just a note, Andy, i'm not trying to pick on you (i feel like you think i am), i just have a problem with someone stating (or even insinuating) that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals shouldnt have the same rights as everyone else around here, without some sort of explaination as to *why* they feel that way.

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i don't care no i wouldn't dare to fix the twist in you (Sick Puppies : All The Same)

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On 2004-11-05 16:29, somechick wrote: and just a note, Andy, i'm not trying to pick on you (i feel like you think i am), i just have a problem with someone stating (or even insinuating) that homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals shouldnt have the same rights as everyone else around here, without some sort of explaination as to *why* they feel that way.

Im not trying to dictate either way, and im not trying to take away anyones rights. If someone is gay, fine - leave me out of it, its none of my business. Just dont try to bring the government into it and try to get benefits out of it.

To me, its a dysfunction just like what i said above, but its accepted by society because both are usually consenting and it harms no one but themselves. Again, this is just my opinion.

On another topic - governments.

Most people think that the US is a democracy - its not, its a republic. In a democracy, the people vote and have a voice in everything. The only thing that the American people vote for is the president and supreme court judges. Everything else is decided by an elected official that represents the citizens of that state; which is a replublic.

State-wide, we are a democracy, but as soon as an issue crosses borders and effects the nation, its a republic matter. I guess you could call us is a Democratic Republic or a Republican Democracy - either way, its not working - we need to return to a real democracy.

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Never allow someone to be your priority, while allowing yourself to be their option.

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On 2004-11-05 18:34, Fluid wrote: Im not trying to dictate either way, and im not trying to take away anyones rights. If someone is gay, fine - leave me out of it, its none of my business. Just dont try to bring the government into it and try to get benefits out of it.

Why not? Why should heterosexual couples receive benefits from the government and homosexual couples not?
If your answer is that you find homosexuality morally wrong, consider that the religion that 24.5% of Americans claim to follow holds all contraception to be morally wrong. What would you say to a suggestion that hetrosexual couples who use contraception should not be allowed to marry? Or maybe consider practices such as sado-masochism. Would you deny marriage to practicioners of S&M on the basis that it goes against your moral code? And, once upon a time, inter-racial marriages were considered wrong.
Or, if you're going to comment that hetrosexual relationships have the potential to produce children, and homosexual ones don't, should marrige be denied to the infertile?

By right everyone should have a right to a voice and that voice should be heard. If that voice is not in the majority then so what? at least they should be heard not shund because their not the majority. For instance if 10% of all men in america were gay then by logic that would about 3 million men (i'm not trying to ignore women i'm just trying to prove the point) while they may not be the majority 3 million is still alot of people and their voice should be heard just as much as anyone else's. Why should another persons prejuices hold against people? why should we be slaves to small minded pettyness?
It's childish and imature. It's like watching kids in a play ground pick on the odd one out because he's different. (i know i used to be that one but i rose above it) and it sickens me to watch grown adults bitch and moan over pointless things. It's makes me wonder sometimes if smashing my brains out would the wiser option.

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Cheese I choose you!

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On 2004-11-05 20:07, MildlyMad wrote: ...the religion that 24.5% of Americans claim to follow holds all contraception to be morally wrong.

Not all Christian denominations hold contraception to be morally wrong (Christians frequent this board, do they not? Can anyone check this point for me? The only 'solid' reference I can come up with off the top of my head is Monty Python's Meaning of Life). However, Catholicism - the most popular Christian denomination - does.

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On 2004-11-05 23:43, Sgt_Oddball wrote: (i know i used to be that one but i rose above it)

I always used to be the odd child. Which isn't to say I didn't have friends, or that I didn't sometimes pick on others myself. Though I'd like to think that I consider other people's feelings more often as a result.

[edit]
Interesting reference here that (in addition to talking about contraception) seems to suggest that having a child is how to keep a marriage from falling apart. Mmm. Oh, and please ignore the first sentence: it's a 'We are the only true Christians' line.

NB: There are differences between the referenced Catholic bible and those of other denominations* (although the Catholic differes more strongly than the rest). Attempting a search to highlight the differences merely reveals rivalry and petty sniping.

*sighs* Sometimes Christianity is given a bad name.

* It might be worth noting that the last time I spoke to Jehovah's Witnesses *grimaces* they were trying to sell me on the fact that they have gone through the bible correlating the consistencies in the different versions, and were living their lives based on that. I may have read The da Vinci Code too recently, or it may be that I watched Dogma about an hour ago, but surely simply *having faith* is what's really important?

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On 2004-11-07 18:50, Legionary wrote: Not all Christian denominations hold contraception to be morally wrong (Christians frequent this board, do they not? Can anyone check this point for me? The only 'solid' reference I can come up with off the top of my head is Monty Python's Meaning of Life). However, Catholicism - the most popular Christian denomination - does.

The 24.5% figure was for the percentage of Americans who are Roman Catholics, not all Christians. (76.5% identify themselves as Christian, and 81% as religious.)

I beg your pardon I've driven 120 miles today, it's done something to me...
[edit] Yesterday.

This message was edited by:Legionary on 2004-11-07 20:41

It's a question of who's gods better? which one is the most holy... i find the best way is to belive what you want and to hold your own moral judment to be your own. No book or person always telling you what is right or wrong will make you think any different when it comes down to it. We're not lambs we don't follow a shepeherd. If you belive in christainity then you belive that we were given free will for a reason.
Being told what to belive and that this is better than anything else is giving up that freedom of will. No one has the right to tell you what to think or feel. No one.

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Cheese I choose you!

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On 2004-11-08 12:41, Sgt_Oddball wrote: i find the best way is to belive what you want and to hold your own moral judment to be your own.

The problem is that whilst this is true for the majority of the populace, there are those that murder, those that steal, those that rape, and many other crimes.

'Crimes'. They are against the law. A set of moral commandments created by man.

Now, in my eyes, and many other peoples' eyes, and in the eyes of those who created the laws, these people are performing immoral acts. But what about in their own eyes? Do they believe what they are doing is wrong? And if so, do they understand - or want to undergo - atonement?

This is all, of course, tangential to views on homosexuality and rights, and indeed to the US elections. Excepting insofar as Bush's moral decisions don't appear to coincide with that of te majority of the UK's populace, or (and I'm guessing based on the election results) almost half of the US's.

this is exactly how i feel about this